note: entered l0 min late)
the Council was comparing a draft by David, the Town attorney, and a draft with comments by Lance Hoffman (LH).
LBarnes: on page 2 there are comments at bottom of page. perhaps shouldn't be so strong. p 2, 3 lines up.
KS: "several" means 1 or 2 to me; I want to use "a number of cases" of negative, injurious ....
(she, however, doesn't cite which cases, offers no data)
LB I don't want to come back.
LH I'm done
KS the point is to recite the consequences. There has been an increase in storm water issues over a long period of time. Some are unrelated to building; some are related to building.
LH: I want it defensible in Court.
LH: most times a big house was not responsible for water problems when people called in to say it was.
to say negative, injurious and contributed to water management problems is enuous, and gets to the tone issue. "demolition of" is too negative.
LB: this ordinance is going forward due to demolitions of existing structures, so I want to keep it though it's not the definitive reason. (she offers no data to demonstrate any demolitions and consequent water managemetn issues are why ord is going forward)
LH: I can live with it.
MW I still don't see what the language is
KS LH suggests we take storm water out.
Dedrun next to me begins muttering or making choking noises to the extent I asked if she were well.
RE to MW: you can look at both copies to see what LH deleted.
MW I would use "issues" rather than the word "problems"
LH is much better
LB: page 3.
KS instead of "several", say "a number of" (doesn't provide data)
LH I wonder about the phrase looming over other houses and streets. Did they really loom over streets themselves?
Dedrun emphatically says strongly "yes" to herself
(so much for unbiased "data" she provided the Council, I guess)
MW I think it's both; I favor leaving that language in
LB Design Elements I favor changing OK This isn't Design Elements yet. but use building elements as a better term.
RE: Oh, where are you?
LH So you want to change the phrase to building elements? Fine. I lost on "streets"?
MW I've lost a few myself
LB anything else on page 3? moving on to page 4.
MW as we go through the process, number lines on future drafts David.
Atty: OK
LH KS you had something to say?
KS I suggest we .... language of sidewalks and front yard... walkway...as relates to nonvegetative provisions. keep in sidewalks, walkways, location style, entry
.... is not relevant.
LB wants to keep it
LH agrees
LB 2nd Whereas on p 4
LH down to bottom, as a result....Town Council finds that.... The Land Use Committee may have found this, but it bothers me to say the Town Council found it because that skirts on design review. Do we need it to defend this ordinance?
Attorney: it's a history of the Land Use committee's findings in its report. can delete it if you aren't sure it's true.
LB: point is the Town Council needs to find certain things to pass legislation.
Atty: but not all these partial findings. you've deleted walkway as an incentive, so you don't need it as a finding.
KS: you only have a problem with what you deleted, Lance?
LH Yes, because these are design matters, and there's no quantification.
LB: It's 100% houses face the street. (she tended to take global sweeping positions in rebuttal)
LH We say "many houses" but we can't quantify it. it's not most garages that are small and understated and behind the homes. That's not a finding of fact we could say.
KS We don't need front proch. but typical means over half and we can say that. it's relevant.
LH does it butress or make a difference in a legal case?
attorney if you treat accessories differently and want to increase accessory garages rather than placing them in the house, then an explanation is helpful.
LH but is this factually correct? over 50% of the garages are detached?
LB Jakovek and Land use Committee report talked about it. the LU Com walked around to the ll sections and looked around. they talked as a committee about what was typical. they didn't count houses and check off detached garages? (ed note: why not if LUC recommends legislation on a claim about quantitative standard w/o any counting?)
LB a general LU Study, just got a sense of the neighborhood
KS proches and entry can go. The second part should stay
LH all right
KS didn't talk about lst deletions
LH whaht's a "distinct pattern of open space between houses?"
LB in older neighborhoods set backs aren't totally built out. the finding of Roger Berliner's group and Garrett Park's finding (ed's note: how does that relate to character of Town?)
Dedrun asked to add: there's a distinct pattern of shared driveways and setbacks. The LUC found "green/close/green/close pattern" (Where? no data again)
KS Let's just say "have open space between houses."
LH I like what was just said. People haven't traditionally built to maximum and we want to keep it that way.
LH I'd have used different language, but just move on.
attorney: I've lost track.
KS and LB: take all out but leave in ..... (?)
LH lst whereas p 5, lst full paragraph. deleted impervious surface because we can't define impervious surface.
RE correct
KS instead of impervious surface, use the word nonvegetative.
LH fine
LH 2nd full paragraph Whereas
I deleted "promotion of proper storm water run off". These words aren't necessary unless you want it in to buttress something.
KS use "improved" rather than "improper"
LB we already have the water management ordinance
Atty: there's a 700 SF exemption in that ordinance so there could be large additions.
LH deal with it by nonvegetative language
LB use "improved"
LH we aren't enacting to fix storm water run off. how does this ordinance affect water run off?
LB LUC saw this as a way to decrease footprints, increase vegetative surface, and vegetative surfaces absort water run off. controlling size, nonvegetative all helps water run off.
LH if over 7000 SF addition, otherwise, water ordinance does not kick in.
KS do it as "improved", are you happy w/ "improved"?
LH yeah, yeah
LH next whereas. add consultants and residents to tip hat to Dedrun and Miche and Elise
LB Dedrun and Elise were members of LUC.
RE all sorts of people helped out
LB I'm not sure why consultants would be in there
LH Allan has done working data base and it would also include Jakovic
LB middle of p 5 say building elements rather than design elements
KS before we leave the page. in next whereas clause, say "the development could impose burdens taht might outweigh benefits"
LB this is at Davids p 5 and LH's p 6
LH that gets to yoru comments on additions. definition is unnecessary if additions is deleted because the term isn't used in Montgomery County
RE what about attics?
attorney definitions of gross floor area defines existing attic space
RE all right
LH did l/2 story come and go?
LB not there yet.
LB next area is gross floor area, my concern. p l0 of LH and the attorney's drafts both gross floor area shouldn't include l/2 stories because we're exempting attics
attorney meets definitions of 66" clearance ceiling height. irrelevant whether attic or not. not an all inclusive list, want it to be clear you are not excluding things.
LB take it out for clarity
Atty concurs. look at whether we still need a definition of l/2 story?
KS come out.
LB story is in the Code.
Jr Atty - story is elsewhere in the ordinance
LB the last definition is wall plane.
RE: ask about our favorite term, wall plane? we have been using wall plate a lot, but it's not in here.
LH I ran a word search before coming here and it's not used (in the ordinance)
LB we just used wall plate because it aws a term used by Donna ? in ???
Atty: you're regulating wall plane. Wall plate differs.
LB P 12 permit purposes. OK with that?
first provision: max height: lowered 2' from County except for established building height. good on that?
there's also an accessory building section; we didn't say garages because we can't regulate those.
p 13 on LH's draft, the wall plane height is 36' Then the FAR provision, .5 and 3000 SF building minimum. if over 12,000 SF lot, use FAR of .25 for SF over 12,000 SF. Wall plane length is 34'
MW what's the difference between a wall plane and a wall plate?
attorney - goes over in front of Council and draws a house with a roof on paper on the table. Wall plate is line supporting the roof - here to here. Wall plane is measured horizontally and vertically and here to here.
RE gets a demonstration drawing in front of him too and a restatement of the explanation.
RE says: nowi s wall plane height different if there is an indentation here?
atty yes.
RE if there's an indentation - the plate and the plane can be the same ?
atty: yes
RE it's slightly confusing. roofs by definition don't go straight up.
atty and KS and LB chime in
LB draws: "you can't see" "you don't see a peak" LH gets up to view LB's drawing. if roof had shingles here, your plane would go to there.
RE depends on gable orientation?
LB depends on that and on your view. It's not perception. It has to do with the side of the house up to the shingles.
Jr and Sr atty confer.
LH wehn I took math, planes had different definitions. Is this Q material?
RE I understand better now what wall plane means.
LB Nonvegetative surface
atty: a big gap is there between 2. and 3. because we planned to show picutres of a house on a corner lot drawing to show how this applies. we haven't got a picture yet. he gets up and draws again. A front yard is an architectural front yard. we didn't want to argue with builders or develoeprs who'd say "this is my new side yard" (Dedrun giggles) attorney draws "this is what we mean by a front with a house that faces an intersection"
LB section F is the grandfathering clause
MW we haven't reached driveways?
LB now
RE what if there's a fire or disaster. if there's a terrorist attack, is it covered?
atty: would probably include it. what if someone burns their own house to avoid these provisions? (Dedrun ejaculates "Right!")
KS that's your clause "accidental" to exclude intentional burning
attorney could include acts of war or terrorists
LH yes
MW write about calling at 3 am
RE radiation plutonium culd ruin your house
LB add attacks of war and terrorists
LB to RE that's a buzzing?
LB then this is garages?
atty: there was 1
LB garages, fine on that
4.8 that's the public right of way
LH are you at the typo?
atty that's not a typo. at one time section 4.7 had a connection
LB so we have LH's comment. moving to driveways. put section 3 back in as inadvertant error.
who should I let speak?
MW please Madam Mayor let it be me. add a section for houses on boundary streets, Bradley, E-West, connecticut. Say it's because of the burdens these residents ahve...
LB same as previous
LB whereas?
atty: wouldn't hurt to explain the different treatmetn
LB is taht it?
so David, doyou have Questions?
atty No, I ahve notes on everything. I'l circulate a draft tomorrow.
MW we look forward to ......
LB d iscuss 3/15 meeting on a Saturday. if in a.m. we can do at CCES in 3 classrooms, or maybe all purpose room. After 2 p.m. in Town Hall - 2 options.
LB to LH your ideas?
RE don't you have a schedule conflict?
LH we have a CC Historical Society tour in the afternoon. Don't go on top of theirs.
LB isn't it ongoing? If we keep it to one hour, it won't be as much.
LB should we go over my ideas?
l) open house - whatever council members can be there. allan for questions. informal.
2) more formal meeting. break out rooms with various things going on such as Council members on waht went on with this ordinance and questions about it. also green building and architecture with a local architect with building practices, ie Muse or Allen and FARS. This would be ahrder to manage and hard to predict.
LH's idea: some residents are concerned because they couldn't come on a weekday, so Saturdays gets a different group. Question 2 is what do you do in green design. This should not be a come and learn about new and green land use. We should focus on the ordinance and answer residents questions.
LH What's in the ordinance and how does it affect me? use visioning committee's break outs of several years ago. send out the educational material and the ordinance and let [people come in with questions for Council members. don't present. have a member l on each side who listens to people - be unstructured.
LB no intended as a public hearing. people say they want dialogue.
KS focusing on the purpose is important - mailing information and the ordinance summary, and also revised FAR worksheet before the meeting. have available Allen and maybe the attorney Dave.
LH also wants revised FAR worksheets to go out.
(I left for l5 minutes)
resuming:
LB we have to do a budget in April
RE I thought it was later
LH I was treasurer last year. Todd and Andy will work up a good baseline. They'll meet with you next week. they'll tell you any hot buttons such as needing another qtr million for another purple line study (facetiously).
LB or l00,000 for Christo to come and do draping. might be cheaper.
LH to KS the Treasurer this year: you'll have that to give to the Council and public
LB It'll be a work session. last year we didn't do it or the year before (MW not in some time) but we used to. Bill (Hudnut) cut it. We did it my first 2 years on the Council.
LH was not a lot of interest as I recall
MW that's changed. we need a work session. then input. we may have to go back
LB it's set up to work as a work session in March. we don't have time now. at April Council meeting we have to have a draft. that goes to the Town meeting.
MW you understand my point. At March l7th it's a work session and people can't comment. there has to be a time to comment.
LB the purpose of the Annual Mtg is a hearing on the budget.
MW you don't want to wait that long. residents want to give their point of view earlier.
LB in April we can have public comments at the April Council meeting
KS invite written comments also
KS final doesn't have to be adopted until June
LB and LH you can adopt it in May the council may discuss comments in their May meeting.
MW remind Todd of the 3/17 meeting and in April residetns should be invited to comment.
LH we may need 2 meetings in April.
KS could have further comment in April Council meeting
MW that's hard. once we have the first hearing we'll know.
discussion of Lent and Mardi Gras.
LB then I can eat chocolate and girl scout cookies
Attorney clarify exception for a driveway on a border street. is it on the architectual front or in general on either side?
RE to LB any because there is only one house at East and Bradley
RE are we gonna have them take down that post?
LB taht's Mier's
KS have a public hearing data in this week's letter. They decide on Wednesday April 2. Sat March 15 is the public "educational" meeting to "listen and explain"
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